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Forum:Prficinecy, skills and mods - Or how % based increases lie to you
There are a ton of skills/mods in borderlands that promise you things like "+100% Damage!". When you see it, you're thinking, "Wow, that doubles my damage output!" - Wrong. Or "+100% Fire rate": "Doubles my Damage output" - Wrong again. The thing is that all the percentage based increases stack: If you have a skill with +100% damage, and then equip a mod with another +100% damage, then the final result is +200%, which is different from "doubling your damage output twice". I know what you are thinking "But this never happens" - Wrong. Case in point: proficiency. Most players will have lvl 50 proficiency with their 2-3 main weapons by the time they reach lvl 50, and most of these give a combination of "+100% damage, fire-rate". With bonus already acquired, any subsequent +100% stat will only give you an actual 50% bonus. So why am I bitching about this? For starters, because I like knowing what is going on, and I hate mods lying to me. For example, a 660 Commando mod will give you a monster +80% Shotgun Firerate, and +40% Damage! Crazy right? Not that much, since by proficiency 50, your shotguns already have +100% Damage, and +100% fire rate. The gain from the mod is still good, don't get me wrong, but nowhere as absurdly good as first let on. Another example is Mordecai's Focus: +50% Accuracy, and +50% Sniper Stability. Quite good huh? Well, at level 50, most weapons already have +150% accuracy from proficiency, and snipers get +200% stability. Doesn't sound so good anymore, does it? The only advantage it really gives is to sniper rifles, which don't get bonuses to accuracy. "How can I use this information to chose my mods better". You are a heavy gunner, and you can't choose between the mod with +50% fire rate, and the mod with +35% damage. I thought "increased fire rate gives +50% DPS, whereas increased damage gives +35% DPS". In reality, the +35% damage will only give approximately +15% damage to all your weapons (because of proficiencies), whereas the increased fire rate will give the full +50% DPS, except shotguns and snipers, who will only get +25%. I don't know if that was very clear, but I hope I was somewhat comprehensive. ***NOTE: DOES NOT APPLY TO WEAPON BASE DAMAGE!!!*** Happypal 10:03, January 26, 2011 (UTC) I think 'lie' might be a bit strong in this case. The phenomena to which you are referring is a fundamental one to loot whore games that is often misunderstood but always boils down to one thing, some bonuses stack additively and some stack multiplicatively and it's not always easy to tell the difference just by looking. Your complaint is essentially that the bonuses stacked additively when you thought they would stack multiplicatively. I would like to point out though that all of these bonuses use the '+' sign for a reason, because they're additive. So really the information was right there the whole time, hiding in plain sight. Tetracycloide 19:12, January 26, 2011 (UTC) :My gripe is that it is not always additive, nor multiplicative. For example, a weapon with with +100% damage on the weapon card will literally double your damage output, as it applies to the weapon base damage. Your skills+mods then stack (multiply) upon that. I find it deceptive that proficiencies are put into the same bag as skills+mods. For example, I had always considered that the heavy gunner +80% mag would not double my mag size, as it already has +60% from skills. However, for shotgun fire rate, it never really felt as if they already had a boost from proficiency. :You are right that lie is a strong word, but it is deceptive. Happypal 20:03, January 26, 2011 (UTC) ::I guess this all seems very normal and expected to be because 'x% Enhanced Damage'(ED) in Diablo II works exactly the same way right down to on weapon 'ED' applying directly to base damage and skills and other sources of off-weapon 'ED' stacking additively with one another and multiplying on the final weapon damage after on weapon ED was added. Tetracycloide 01:26, January 27, 2011 (UTC) The thing is that the bonus is always on the base of what ever is being added. If you have a gun that is 100dmg and your prof. is 50, you will still only get 48% dmg increase which is+ 48 for a total 148. If you have a com that gives 50% dmg increase its still on the base dmg so thats +50 for a total 198 from both. It wont give you 148 damage and then 50% of that for 222. This is simplified but i think that is how it works. Same for rate of fire and mag size i believe.Veggienater 21:50, January 26, 2011 (UTC) One thing that i will say about modern day games... They don't always pass along CLEAR information. As long as people are playing and having fun (more like buying product), they don't always CARE about details. This could be attributed to secrets to unlock about the game, but it becomes highly doubtful when known things are just not corrected. It's definitely easier to let others define your game, while concentrating on "more important points". The only games you can expect complete support on, is ones that you pay monthly on. It us up to us as supporters of the game to give information to each other, to define what we know and to share details as we encounter them. That is the true spirit in which we all share. Whether the producers do, or do not, is none of our concern. In the end, its up to us to determine the validity of the game and to get the details. (or i just might be way off) I am the best robot 11:06, January 27, 2011 (UTC)